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Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990
by Anastasia N. Karakasidou
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Nicholas’s review
http://www.incore.ulster.ac.uk/services/ecrd/new/reviews/102.html
This is a gripping and moving account of the construction of Greek nationhood in a municipality near Thessaloniki. Using both oral and official history, Karakasidou reveals how the inhabitants of the town once called Guvezna and now known as Assiros were altered from an Ottoman cocktail of Turks, Slavs and Greeks to the mono-ethnic culture present there today. The space left by departing Turks and Slavs after the town came under Greek control was partly filled by refugees forced to resettle in Greek Macedonia after the disastrous war of 1922. They mostly spoke Turkish themselves as a first language, but, like those Slavic speakers who remained in the town, they became assimilated during the course of the twentieth century. “In many ways,” the author concludes, “the past has become very much a foreign country to the Assiriotes”. (p.217)
But this book is not just about Macedonia, it is about nation-building. Karakasidou complains that “while there is overwhelming concern among Euro-American politicians and diplomats over what nationalism has brought to Eastern Europe in recent years, many seem unaware of the fact that nation-building processes are a longue duree”, (p. 146) and she describes the process in all its brutality. War, religion, politics and capitalism all contributed to constructing the ‘official narrative’ of this particular nation in this particular place over the last 120 years.
Cambridge University Press declined to publish this book, fearing attacks on their Greek staff if the crisis over the official name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia were to escalate. Fortunately it did not, and many Greeks now look to their new northern neighbour as a business opportunity rather than a military threat. Perhaps Karakasidou’s courageous research helped to open up the space in which this became possible. There may be hope for all of us.(less)
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message 1: by Mike (last edited 10 days ago, 12:42PM) – rated it 3 stars Feb 08, 2010 11:16AM
Hi Nick,
As you mention, Greeks tried to look at FYROM as a business opportunity. Unfortunately when they started contradicting their own elected government’s ethnic narrative that they weren’t claiming to be “ancient macedonians (and now portray Macedonia Greece as “occupied’).. it became evident that they have no interest in dealing honestly with Greeks.
For those, that supported FYROM (who are now building giant statues of Alexander and naming everything in sight Alexander and Philip)… a reminder of what FYROM’s own elected leaders assured you not so long ago.
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’ (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington, – January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov – Interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President – Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YT…
The fact is people like you made a dramatic mistake in both intellectual and moral judgment. It now boils down if you are willing to take responsibility for those mistakes-or keep supporting FYROM’s conscious lies and blaming Greeks for your own racism against them.
Greejk have every right to protect their nation and heritage from the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of the former Yugoslav state-that went looking for a fight against them.
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message 2: by Nicholas – added it Feb 09, 2010 10:59AM
Quite simply, Greece is reaping what it sowed in the early 1990s. Nationalist apologists like you make any reconciliation less likely.
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message 3: by Mike (last edited 2 days ago, 09:39PM) – rated it 3 stars Feb 16, 2010 08:33PM
Nicholas wrote: “Quite simply, Greece is reaping what it sowed in the early 1990s. Nationalist apologists like you make any reconciliation less likely.”
According to my reading of your logic above, Greeks are now responsible for the behavior of FYROM nationalist extremists-not FYROM nationalist extremists? Curious reasoning that.
Loring Danforth (that strongly supported them like you did on alleged “human rights’ grounds) once wrote…
“Extreme Macedonian nationalists, who are concerned with demonstrating the continuity between ancient and modern Macedonians, deny that they are Slavs and claim to be the direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians. The more moderate Macedonian position, generally adopted by better educated Macedonians and publicly endorsed by Kiro Gligorov, the first president of the newly independent Republic of Macedonia, is that modern Macedonians have no relation to Alexander the Great, but are a Slavic people whose ancestors arrived in Macedonia in the sixth century AD”
www.gate.net/~mango/Danforth_National_Co…
According to that definition, a fair chunk of FYROM’s population now qualify as “extremists” no? Rather ironic that the very people that used to ridicule Greeks for suggesting we have every right to protect our identity and nation… now claim themselves to be ancient Macedonians!
Surely Greeks haven’t been warning for 20 years it wasn’t just a dispute over a name and there would be such complications if they were recognized. Of course the wise Nicholas’ of the world couldn’t be bothered to take Greek peasant nationalists living a myth seriously (see Herzfeld). Instead you took at face value the assurances and historical narrative of a nation that had been living for 60 years under communist totalitarism. Clearly as events have unfolded such Greeks have proven themselves incapable of sophisticated reasoning.
As everyone knows ancient Macedonians were actually Slavic, spoke a Slavic dialect, and lived in ancient Paoenia (much like ancient English people were actually Russians, old English is actually a Slavic dialect. and the Ukraine is the “real” Wales) And if anyone questions that validity of this narrative they should be called “racists”, “nationalist” and “ethnic cleansers”. And if everyone “recognizes” FYROM thousands upon thousands of ancient Macedonian artifacts will eventually one day rewrite themselves from Greek into their Bulgarian dialect and put this issue finally to rest
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-lett…
The dirty mongrel Greeks are clearly to blame for everything. Surely neither FYROM nor self-proclaimed “human rights” experts like yourself are capable of errors and prejudices. I mean it makes perfect sense that FYROM nationalists (and their supporters) on the one hand claim the right to self-identification an absolute-yet on the other openly deny Greeks their own ethnic identity? It makes perfect sense that on one side they claim they are sure ancient Macedonians weren’t Greek-yet on the other obsess over trying to prove Greeks aren’t “real” Greeks. It makes perfect sense one day FYROM’s leaders argue they aren’t related to ancient Macedonians-the next they are great Macedonian warriors?
Frankly dear Nicholas, it seems hiding your mistakes means more to you then correcting them. No worries you are not alone. All the nations and media outlets that recognized are desperately trying to pretend they don’t notice FYROM’s erratic behavior and blaming Greeks too.
However, if you cared about protecting actual human rights you’d put your pride aside and realize those rights apply to protecting Greeks as well (as well as our own identity). Instead you apparently find it more important to continue to demonize Greeks and be an apologist for obvious conscious fraud being currently openly promoted by the FYROM government. That speaks volumes about your commitment to human rights.
I try to keep an open mind around the complex historical and moral issues. Only a fanatic closes their mind. However, thus far no historical argument has been able to win me over that FYROM has a better case than Macedonians. In addition, the dramatically inconstantly applied human rights standards (as applied towards Greeks by people like you) convinces me I am the victim of prejudice not reason.
And in my opinion, it;s precisely because of people like you (that rushed to call them “Macedonians” and try to paint Greeks in a negative light)… that the moderates in FYROM (who’ve been trying to come out of the closet as ethnic Bulgarians)… have been crushed
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…:] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..:] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…:] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…:]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…:]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…:]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…:]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…:] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play…
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made. (Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to FYROMian newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
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message 4: by Mike (last edited 1 day ago, 12:05AM) – rated it 3 stars Feb 16, 2010 11:44PM
“They mostly spoke Turkish themselves as a first language, but, like those Slavic speakers who remained in the town, they became assimilated during the course of the twentieth century.”
Incidentally since you are trying to imply they were “assimilated” into Greeks did it ever occur to you (and Herzfeld, Karakasidou, Danforth, and co) this “assimilated” wording has 60 years of communist block framing behind it? (exactly why all the far leftists Greeks, the only one’s that agree with you, use the same wording)
A. How do you know they “mostly” spoke Turkish as first langauge? Census source rather than flaky post-modernist narratives please.
B. And lets suppose they did speak Turkish as a first langauge. So what. Clearly their ethnic consciousness wasn’t Turkish and they wanted to speak Greek (as opposed to a Bulgarian dialect like FYROM nationalists) Were Jews under the Ottomans that spoke Turkish as a first langauge not Jews? Were such Turkish speaking Jews “assimilated” into Israelis? How about the one’s the spoke Polish, couldn’t speak a lick of Hebrew (a dead language until the 19th century), and were atheists. Does that mean that modern Jews aren’t “real” Jews Nicholas?
Of course most Greeks don’t believe they are pure Greeks (just one more negative stereoptype that fake FYROM “human rights” activists use to spread ethnic hatred of Greeks- that people like you bought into) However, this is true of every ethnic group on earth.
You imagine dear Nicholas that the English haven’t “assimilated” Poles, French, Germans and many other ethnic groups into “English” folk over the last 500 years (do a DNA check to confirm if you doubt me). You think Americans haven’t changed toponyms after conflicts? (see status of native Indians)
So does the fact the English people have mixed, that the English language and culture has evolved considerably since the middle ages now mean I now get to pompously start starting suggesting you are just English-speaking peasants living a myth of being related to ancient English? That the “real” English people disappeared ages ago?
And if France has a civil war do they get to call themselves “ethnic Normaans” if they want? How about suggest you are fake English unrelated to ancient English? Suggest 1/3 of UK is “occupied”? Claim French as the language of Wales? Suggest the UK is persecuting “ethnic Normans”? Call you “mongrels”? Claim Newton and Shakespeare were actually French? And start framing you as racist nationalist extremists if you object?
And what exactly happened to all the self-identifying “ethnic Bulgarians” that used to live in FYROM? Where exactly did all these “ethnic Macedonians” come from? Could it be that Bulgarians were “assimilated” into “ethnic Macedonians” (by other Bulgarians ironically)
See how that works Nicholas.
That’s how far self-righteous people like you have strayed from human rights into supporting conscious liars in the FYROM government (that openly promote ethnic hatred against Greeks because we won’t accept their state myths since it hurts us the most) You think because you can utter the words ‘human rights’ it magically protects you from having prejudices.
WE are Greeks and Macedonia is part of our nations history not the former Bulgarians living in ancient Paeonia that speak a south Slavic dialect. Stop trying to blame Greeks because Yugoslavia had an ethnic war and you expect us to pay the price for FYROM’s mistakes. And grow up and take responsibility for your mistakes Nicholas. Don’t be like the former Bulgarians too “proud” to admit them and instead driven by their hatred of Greeks.
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message 5: by Nicholas – added it Feb 17, 2010 04:44AM
*yawn*
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message 6: by Mike (last edited 1 day ago, 09:41AM) – rated it 3 stars Feb 17, 2010 09:37AM
What are you 12 years old Nick? Why not try offering a response with facts and substance? Your pompous immature attitude is just more evidence of your prejudices Nick. If you cared about “human rights’ you’d be more sensitive. Instead you care more about your pride.
Here is an example of what kind of “human rights’ work people like you have produced in FYROM nationalist extremism.
“Divine blessing for you, my Macedonians. I have waited for thousands of years to be called by you. From always with you, from eternity I am coming, I am already among you because here neither time nor space exists. Here, at my place, the time is still. But at your place, the time is now, for me to explain. Your mother earth I have inhabited with three races: the White-Macedonoids, the Yellow-Mongoloids and the Black-Negroids. The rest-all are mulattoes. From you, Macedonians, the descendants of Macedon, I have impregnated the White race and everything began from you, to the Sea of Japan. All White people are your brothers because they carry Macedonian gene.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ITEdiSBl…
(footage from state owned TV in 2009 claiming “Macedonians” as progenitors of the White Race)
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message 7: by Mike – rated it 3 stars Feb 17, 2010 09:57AM
“We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.” (FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YT…
Yet today building giant statues to Alexander and claiming themselves ancient Macedonians? Pardon did some great new archeological discovery happen in the last 10 years?
Yet Nicholas the “human right” activist continues to ridicule Greeks… for saying this would happen all along? Both good and evil men make make mistakes Nick. One of the properties that separates them is the evil ones are incapable of admitting their mistakes in moral judgment. They are controlled more by their pride than principles. Instead they keep hurting people unfairly to hide their own shame.
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message 8: by Mike (last edited 1 day ago, 03:40PM) – rated it 3 stars Feb 17, 2010 12:13PM
FYROM nationalists use an endless stream of out-of-context 19th century “Macedonian” quotes to try and trick people into believing an ethnicity existed were there was none. “Macedonian” was an unofficial regional term back then. There were Bulgarians (who’ve been “assimilated” into today’s FYROM nationalists), Turks, Greeks, Albanians, Jews, and Roma which is easily shown by the lack of census data (which certain “human rights” supporters seemingly consciously publicly obfuscate)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic…
There is also currently a widespread effort to put our two ethnic claims on Macedonia at par by burying all sorts of facts that clearly support Greeks case-and insinuating “facts” that don’t. For instance, I read an article in the NY Times a year ago that tried to suggest Greek used to all speak Albanian. While no doubt some Albanians have been “assimilated” into Greeks (e.g. Avrites that used to be around Athens which was a small village under the Ottomans) the absurdity of trying to suggest we all spoke Albanian…when we know for a fact many were speaking Greek well before the formation of the modern Greek state… is just more evidence of prejudice masquerading as “human rights”. Modern demotic Greek is not a manufactured Greek dialect like Katharevousa, nor the liturgy dialect that is closer to Koine Greek (spread by ancient Macedonians ironically), nor attic Greek. It’s a time worn Greek Nicholas.
Although not perfectly, a twelve year old Macedonian girl can still read some of the words on a 2300 year old Macedonian artifact. There is a very real emotional distress to millions of Greeks, that people around the globe have been causing us to support what they know…they know… are unambiguous conscious deceptions from FYROM.
Why I suggest specifically prejudice is a factor is because media outlets have carefully avoided any mention whatsoever of their prior positions on Macedonia (or past positions of FYROM politicians that not so long ago claimed not to be related to ancient Macedonians). Why hide so many facts?
e.g. the NY Times itself reported Delchev’s death as a BULGARIAN in 1903. (today re branding him an “ethnic Macedonian”)
“SALONIKA. May 6. 1903 – An engagement is reported to have occurred at the village of Vanitza between Turkish troops and a Bulgarian band. Sixty Bulgarians, including their leader, Detzeff, were killed, while the Turks had four men killed and three wounded. Thirty houses in Vanitza were burned.
A Bulgarian band led by Petroff has been routed at Krapeseza. Seven of the Bulgarians were killed.”
e.g. the US government (and I believe the UK as well) flatly denied the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” in 1944 calling it communist demagoguery (when it was much more obvious that “Macedonians” were mostly “Bulgarians” renamed “Macedonians”)
tinyurl.com/nel46d
And why not mention that many Greek/Romans in the Romans/Byzantine empire considered ancient Greeks their ancestors, spoke Greek, and were still teaching Greek philosophy to westerners…. long after antiquity but before the “great powers” allegedly showed up to convince us we were related to Greeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_schol…
Also carefully omitted from the discussion is Greek Macedonians (among the millions of Greeks who equally consider ancient Macedonia part of their history). What of their human rights? What of their identity which is being denied from them in order to support an unambiguous lie in FYROM?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_…
This demonization of Greeks has reached such epic proportions that when Greeks integrate non-Greeks into their nation it is now reframed disdainfully as “Hellenization” and prounced around as “proof” we are not “real” Greeks.
Is there a word like “Irish-ization”? “American-ization”? China-ization? FYROM-ization? Why are we being slandered as racists, xenophobes and nationalists for integrating? How can one reason with such hate tainted logic-coming even from those that claim to support “human rights”?
Some suggest Greeks are being a bully. They have it exactly backwards. Greeks are being bullied by the 100 plus nations that recognized them but are now too ashamed to admit they made a mistake in not trusting us. We too shoulder some of the blame for making a mess of our name (via our government finances) but this is not moral justification to erase us from history.
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message 9: by Nicholas – added it Feb 17, 2010 11:08PM
I don’t normally engage with anonymous commenters, and I certainly haven’t read much of the above, but I caught a mention of Goce Delchev. Do remind me, what was the name of his organisation?
If you want to devote your energies more fruitfully than posting comments which I probably won’t read to a review which I wrote over ten years ago, I suggest you try engaging with some of the other people who call themselves Macedonians. You may even find some in Ontario.
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message 10: by Mike (last edited 12 hours, 23 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 14 hours, 47 min ago
Do remind me, what was the name of his organisation?
Here is what Delchev wrote (while leading IMRO) to Nikola Maleshevski on 1 May 1899.
‘I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when WE OURSELVES ARE BULGARIANS…’
Many erronously believe “IMRO” was “ethnic Macedonian” organization. However, this is a perfect example of half-truths that emanate from FYROM. What they don’t tell you is originally IMRO was named BMARC. (which stands for BULGARIAN Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees). Here are some of their statutes (orginally co-authored by Delchev and future IMRO leaders and written in what was still widely considered a BULGARIAN dialect at the time)
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees:] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising. Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender, …
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedoni…
BMARC eventually became IMRO but was still founded by former BMARC members. Hristo Tatarchev, Dame Gruev, Petar Pop-Arsov, Andon Dimitrov, Hristo Batandzhiev and Ivan Hadzhinikolov-most of them connected with the Bulgarian Men’s High School they attended (and in practice most of the organization was made up of ethnic Bulgarians). Ivan Hadzhinikolov in his memoirs wrote as one of the principles of the organization.
“The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.” (i.e. clearly indicating he saw it as an organization specifically for Bulgarians)
Tatarchev (another leader in the organization) wrote in his memoirs.
“We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. ”
Misirkov (a key FYROM national icon) wrote later after the failed Ilenden uprising: “The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
He also wrote-“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.”
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misir…
Again let me stress, “Macedonian” in the 19th century was a regional term not ethnic. The region was populated by many ethnic groups-none of them “ethnic Macedonians” Census after census indisputable proves this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic…
Todays “ethnic Macedonians” (aka former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians) misuse the term out-of-context to trick people like you (who I have no doubt are well meaning but are ill informed on this issue).
By FYROM nationalists refusing to compromise on a name they are trying to suggest Macedonia Greece is “occupied” (since they are now the real “ancient Macedonians”… that speak a Bulgarian dialect renamed “Macedonian”) This is akin to French renaming French English, themselves the “real” English, and calling the UK “occupied”.
Ancient Macedonian artifacts are all writen in Greek not a Slavic dialect. Would you prefer the primary language of the UK as Russian or English? Would you be a “nationalist” or “racist”” for being firm and suggesting English? If they claim to be Macedonians-why wouldn’t they want to speak the language of their own self-proclaimed ancestors?
Unfortunately people want quick easy answers where the story is very complex. All they see is a bunch of people saying they are “ethnic Macedonians” and can’t understand the extent of lying going on in FYROM. (the effects of 60 years of communist tyranny and propaganda) Instead they bought into the endless stream of hate and stereotypes that emanates from FYROM towards Greeks (because we won’t accept their absurd historical narrative-as we are the ones hurt by it).
Nocholas wrote: I certainly haven’t read much of the above
Someone that has firm opinions yet refuses to learn the other side of the story. That’s what prejudice is all about. This is why I suggest Greeks are victims of prejudice. Why are so many politicians and media outlets hiding such information? I couldn’t believe it myself until even the NY Times started contridicting its own reporting (claiming in 1903 Delchev was a Bulgarian yet today claiming he was an “ethnic Macedonian”?)
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message 11: by Nicholas – added it 14 hours, 42 min ago
So what did the letters IMRO stand for?
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message 12: by Mike (last edited 14 hours, 40 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 14 hours, 42 min ago
Even some of FYROM’s key politicians have come out of the closet as Bulgarians. Unfortunately it never gets reported (my guess is because many people in news organizations are ashamed to admit they were had and its much easier to keep demonizing Greeks)
‘Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev – must I list and count all of them – were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.’ (former Prime Minister FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book ‘Facing the truth’-who now also has a Bulgarian passport)
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.”
(Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…:] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..:] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…:] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…:]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…:]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…:]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…:]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…:] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski on FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play…
And again let me stress what FYROM’s own elected government officials used to tell you not so long ago (to underline the amount of lying going on by their current government)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YT…
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message 13: by Nicholas – added it 14 hours, 37 min ago
So what did the letters in “IMRO” stand for?
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message 14: by Mike (last edited 13 hours, 4 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 13 hours, 12 min ago
Going back to Loring Danforth. He claimed (to NGOs and governments) the FYROM government weren’t claiming to be ancient Macedonians over a decade ago. He also bizarrely claimed there was a historical concensus ancient Macedonians weren’t Greeks. (which any public school kid with an Internet connection can discover is far from the case- see ancient Olympics where they competed as self-identifying Greeks)
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-lett…
Let me specifically quote him about FYROM because he’s been such a strong supporter of FYROM in the name dispute (ergo-no one can accuse him of being on the Greek side or Greek “nationalism”)
“The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)
“Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.” (p.63)
“The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)
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message 15: by Mike (last edited 12 hours, 25 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 12 hours, 27 min ago
Indentally. Why I stay anonymous is because I literaly fear for my family’s safety. I live in Toronto where there are tens of thousands of “ethnic Macedonians”-most of which hate Greeks since we are the one’s that call out their historical fabrications (since it most effects us).
I’m not sure what they expect to happen. Even if every nation on earth “recognizes” them (and demonizes Greeks for protecting their own identity)… it will not change the fact ancient Macedonia is not ancient Peonia (which is where FYROM is primiarly situated) nor will countless ancient Macedonian artifacts (written in Greek) rewrite themselves into their south Slavic dialect that used to be called Bulgarian.
e.g.
“Men of Athens… In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas (Greece); I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery.
(The speech of Alexander I of Macedonia when he was admitted to the Olympic games, Herodotus, ” Histories”, 9.45, ed. A. D. Godley)
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message 16: by Mike (last edited 5 hours, 10 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 7 hours, 50 min ago
Nicholas wrote: “So what did the letters in “IMRO” stand for?”
You may know what the letters stand for but seemingly don’t want to know anything further than that. My guess for that is because to do so would require you accept moral responsibility for the fact you (and the mob) allowed your prejudices against Greeks to take hold of you (rather than reason and fairness)
Again let me repeat, Delchev and fellow IMRO members made it quite clear they were ethnic Bulgarians (but ethnic Bulgarians trying to control all of Macedonia… at the expense of macedonian Greeks living there) Delchev and co. in their own words (I can find more examples but these should make in abundently clear how they saw themselves ethnically).
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees:] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising. Chapter II. – Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender”
You can find a photo of the original document here.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedoni…
‘I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when WE OURSELVES ARE BULGARIANS…’ (Gotse Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski on Sofia, 1 May 1899 WHILE PART OF IMRO)
Or how about Misirkov whom FYROM nationalist portray as an “ethnic Macedonian” national father today. Here are some of the parts they carefully omit.
“Who is against a greater Bulgaria is against Slavism”
http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm
“Macedonians means only Macedonian Bulgarians”
http://mak-truth.com/k_conf.htm
“Some will ask why I speak of breaking away from the Bulgarians when in the past we have even called ourselves Bulgarians ”
http://misirkov.org/preface.htm
“The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.”
http://misirkov.org/what_have_we_done.ht…
“there were certain people who considered that the existence of such a society was quite unnecessary because there was no exclusively Macedonian nationality in Macedonia – only Serbs and Bulgarians – and since there were already Serb and Bulgarian student societies in St. Petersburg there was no need for a Macedonian one as well.” http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm
“Is it even possible now to bring about the national unification of the Macedonians when in Macedonia we have several nationalities and not just one, and when there is no separate Macedonian Slav nation?”
http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm
“Come what may, our separation from the Bulgarians…”
http://misirkov.org/is_there_a_need.htm
“We did indeed call ourselves “Bulgarians” and “Christians” in the national sense” http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism….
“They use this fact – that the people of Macedonia are described variously as Serbs, Greeks, and Bulgarians…”
http://misirkov.org/nacional_separatism….
“The first objection — that a Macedonian Slav nationality has never existed — may be very simply answered as follows: what has not existed in the past may still be brought into existence later, provided that the appropriate historical circumstances arise.”
http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm
“why is it that they cannot and will not agree that from this larger ethnographic unit, which everybody including themselves describes as the Bulgarian nation, two smaller units might be formed: a Bulgarian and a Macedonian one?”
http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm
“The emergence of the Macedonians as a separate Slav people is a perfectly normal historical process”
http://misirkov.org/can_macedonia.htm
“No matter whether we call ourselves Bulgarians or Macedonians we shall always feel as a nationality with a Bulgarian national consciousness,”
http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm
“We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness.”
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Krste_Misir…
“The Ilinden Uprising of 1903 had a pronounced effect on me and caused me to make some mistakes which completely isolated me from the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia. With great respect I was forced to temporarily renounce completely working for the realization of the Bulgarian national ideals[…:] “The same Mr Zanetov gave me the idea to appeal to you and ask for a lecturing position at the Bulgarian Male Gymnasium in Salonika. I agreed with satisfaction to Mr Zanetov’s proposal, since in this way I would receive the opportunity, anew, and according to my ability to serve the Bulgarian national interest and ideals”
http://www.mak-truth.com/k_re2.htm
In 1924 Mirsirkov writes in a Bulgarian newspaper.
“If the question of racial similarity and difference between Bulgarians and Macedonians comes to be resolved on the basis of the national name, language and history, there is no doubt that we should resolve it as a Greek priest did in 1804; author of a four-language dictionary Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian and Albanian and who regarded as Bulgarian the Western Macedonian dialect. Therefore when in Macedonia and Bulgaria there was no mention of the Bulgarian Exarchate, the Greeks, obviously well acquainted with the Balkan nationalities, do not make any distinction between a Bulgarian, a Macedonian and a Macedonian Slav. We the Macedonians, cannot, and have no reason to ignore this and similar facts, which can be quoted by the hundreds. We cannot ignore them because to do so means to distort our history, to hide the truth and to deceive ourselves.”
http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap2.htm
“But now cries from the Macedonians can be heard: we are Bulgarians, we are more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians themselves. …….. You could be victors over Bulgaria and impose on it all sorts of treaties but this cannot change our conviction, our consciousness that we are not Serbians, that up till now we have called ourselves Bulgarians and this is what we are today and this is what we want to be called in the future.”
http://www.mak-truth.com/k_pap1.htm
etc… etc..
You and the rest of the people that rushed to recognize FYROM… can certainly continue to bully Greeks Nicholas (by stereotyping all Greeks as racists and nationalists for standing up to your bullying attempt to hand over our ethnic identity to a neighbouring state)
Or you come to realization that Greeks aren’t all the nationalist extremist villians you make us to be and FYROM nationalist extremists aren’t the perpetual innocent “victims” some make them out to be.
http://www.i-macedonia.com/blog/files/FY…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mihail…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana
http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
Either way ancient Macedonian artifacts are forever going to be written in Greek. All people like you are accomplishing is torturing them (and Greeks) by having this drag out (because of your own pride and inability to accept you are in the moral wrong by continuing to support their unambigious historical fabrications).
We’ve come half way by suggesting composite name in good faith. There is no good reason why the former self-identifying Bulgarians of FYROM can’t compromise on a name. It doesn’t prevent them from speaking their language, having a culture, and having an identity. They just can’t have ours nor can they be allowed to use it as an a tool to imply Macedonia Greece as “occupied”. Otherwise that road will only lead to yet another bloody Balkan conflict because if push comes to shove millions of these Greeks (whose identity some so generously hand away while claiming to stand for ‘human rights”) will not volentarily commit ethnic suppuku because other people hate them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(Greeks)
Human rights applies to Greeks too. Period.
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message 17: by Mike (last edited 5 hours, 55 min ago) – rated it 3 stars 6 hours, 37 min ago
All men in all nations make mistakes. In my opinion, a property that distinguishes a good man from the bad ones is that a good man knows when its time to say “I’m sorry. I was wrong”. Such an admission does not mean one is intrinsicly a bad person or that another man is a better man. It’s only an admission one understands there is a difference between wrong and right beyond self-defensive pride. Otherwise morals is just reduced to sophistry where one pretends to stand for something but all they really stand for is whatever words senselessly come out of their mouths.
Justice demands following principles not simply a lynching by some self-righteous angry mob dujour. And the principles of justice demand observation of the facts-even if it sometimes leads to unflattering conclusions about our own mistakes.
….
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YT…
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message 18: by Nicholas – added it 21 minutes ago
Now you are getting repetitive as well as boring. I think this exchange is at an end.
message 19: by Mike (last edited 2 days ago, 02:10PM) (new) – rated it 3 stars Feb 19, 2010 10:14AM
Another fact filled reply by Nicholas. Well here is my own narrative Nick. Whereas once it might have been excusable as an honest mistake, given FYROM’s obvious conscious deceptions today… every word you speak in defense of FYROM makes you partially complicit in setting up the ideological justifications for a future attempt at genocide of the Greek people.
Despite having such firm righteous opinions in the name dispute for so long, you don’t want to deal with inconvenient facts that don’t suit your little narrative of Greeks as the villians. Your answers here, in the face of what has now become blatently obvious deceptions by the current FYROM government, are full witness to the fact your motivations are not to arrive at the truth and human rights but to defend your prejudices, and pride.
(16th century reading, on the alleged 18th century invention of Greeks theory, promoted by 20th century “experts” that claim former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians that clearly speak a Slavic dialect and live in primary ancient Paoenia… are “ethnic Macedonians”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_schol…
One day FYROM nationalist aren’t related to ancient Macedonians-the next they are direct descendents of ancient Macedonians? How would you like it Greeks started insinuating your identity was fake Nicholas to suit a completely different nation taking it from you?
If FYROM’s identity was as sacred to them as they claim-why did they abandon their Bulgarian ethnic roots and start self-Hellenizing themselves as Macedonians? Are they ashamed of their Bulgarian heritage? This isn’t the 19th century where the facts weren’t as well known and such behavior might have been excusable. Twenty years past communism they should know full well by now…
A. they freely used to self-identify as ethnic Bulgarians (their language alone should have been a “slight” clue)
B. the historical record shows ancient macedonians were SELF-IDENTIFYING Greeks
Since you don’t like repetition, here is new quote for you from another “human rights” activist.
“You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness HAS NOT YET DEVELOPED AMONG THE POPULATION IS OF NO ACCOUNT. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist.” [Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation on 7 June 1946 (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov)
http://www.journaloforiginalthinking.com…
Re: Checkpoint Charlie, I’ll never forget what the tour guide said when we were in Berlin, which was don’t take pictures with the student’s dressed as guards, it only encourages them.